Yeah sorry this isn’t molestation, this is how media works in a digital connected world. The fact the entertainment industry has been denying the realities of their industry for 50 some odd years causes some head-scratching takes, like an actress being “molested” by someone jerking off to her in a scene they didnt pay for. No, sorry lady, once you expose the flesh to the camera you relinquish the right to keep it to yourself.
These stupid goddamn articles always trot out some actress or stagehand to humanize the ‘victims’ too, when its really just rich production companies losing money. Fuck everything about this.
This is also why I am thankful for the American first amendment.
It would appear that in that user’s country, it is considered additionally a crime to take the nude scene out of context.
I think a lot of people online take freedom of speech for granted, not realizing that many supposedly civilized countries have an increasing number of restrictions on unpopular speech, critical speech, or otherwise undesirable speech like this.
Make no mistake. The US is heading in the same direction. Look at the proposed anti-deepfake laws. That guy could be prosecuted extremely harshly under those.
It will be interesting to see that tested in court.
I don’t think anyone would complain about for example a pencil sketch of a naked celebrity, that would be considered free speech and fair use even if it is a sketch of a scene from a movie.
So where does the line go?
If the pencil sketch is legal, what if you do a digital sketch with Adobe illustrator and a graphics tablet?
What if you use the Adobe AI function to help clean up the image? What if you take screen grabs of a publicity shot of the actor’s face and a nude image of someone else, and use them together to trace the image you end up painting? What if you then use AI to help you select colors and help shading? What if you do each of those processes individually but you have AI do each of them? That is not very functionally different from giving an AI a publicity shot and telling it to generate a nude image.
As I see it, The only difference between the AI deepfake and the fake produced by a skilled artist is the amount of time and effort required. And while that definitely makes it easy to turn out an awful lot of fakes, it’s bad policy to ban one and not the other simply based on the process by which the image was created.
It’s messy legislation all around. When does it become porn vs art vs just erotic or satirical? How do you prove it was a deep fake and not a lookalike? If I use a porn actress to make a deep fake is that also illegal or is it about how the original source content was intended to be used/consumed?
I’m not saying that we should just ignore these issues, but I don’t think any of this will be handled well by any government.
That’s easy. The movie studios know what post-production went into the scenes and have the documents to prove it. They can easily prove that such clips fall under deepfake laws.
Y’all need to be more cynical. These lobby groups do not make arguments because they believe in them, but because it gets them what they want.
I was responding to an above comment. The guy who was arrested in op’s article was posting clips from movies (so not deep fakes).
That being said, for deepfakes, you’d need the original video to prove it was deepfaked. Additionally, you’d then probably need to prove they used a real person to make the deep fake. Nowadays it’s easy to make “fake” people using AI. Not sure where the law sits on creating deepfakes of fake people who resemble other people.
I didn’t make the point clear. The original scenes themselves, as released by the studio, may qualify as “deepfakes”. A little bit of digital post-processing can be enough to qualify them under the proposed bills. Then sharing them becomes criminal, fair use be damned.
Actually I was thinking about this some more and I think there is a much deeper issue.
With the advent of generative AI, photographs can no longer be relied upon as documentary evidence.
There’s the old saying, ‘pics or it didn’t happen’, which flipped around means sharing pics means it did happen.
But if anyone can generate a photo realistic image from a few lines of text, then pictures don’t actually prove anything unless you have some bulletproof way to tell which pictures are real and which are generated by AI.
And that’s the real point of a lot of these laws, to try and shove the genie back in the bottle. You can ban deep fake porn and order anyone who makes it to be drawn in quartered, you can an AI watermark it’s output but at the end of the day the genie is out of the bottle because someone somewhere will write an AI that ignores the watermark and pass the photos off as real.
I’m open to any possible solution, but I’m not sure there is one. I think this genie may be out of the bottle for good, or at least I’m not seeing any way that it isn’t. And if that’s the case, perhaps the only response that doesn’t shred civil liberties is to preemptively declare defeat, acknowledge that photographs are no longer proof of anything, and deal with that as a society.
One solution that’s been proposed is to cryptographic ally sign content. This way someone can prove they “made” the content. It doesn’t prove the content is real, but means you can verify the originator.
However, at the end of the day, you’re still stuck with needing to decide who you trust.
Probably the best idea yet. It’s definitely not foolproof though. Best you could do is put a security chip in the camera that digitally signs the pictures, but that is imperfect because eventually someone will extract the key or figure out how to get the camera to sign pictures of their choosing that weren’t taken by the camera.
A creator level key is more likely, so you choose who you trust.
But most of the pictures that would be taken as proof of anything probably won’t be signed by one of those.
I’m not fine with that, as it will have wide-ranging repercussions on society at large that aren’t all good.
But I fully accept it as the cold hard reality that WILL happen now that the genie’s out of the bottle, and the reality that any ham-fisted legal attempt to rebottle the genie will be far worse for society and only delay the inevitable acceptance that photographs are no longer proof.
And as such, I (and most other adults mature enough to accept a less-than-preferred reality as reality) stand with you and give the statists the middle finger, along with everyone else who thinks you can legislate any genie back into its bottle. In the 1990s it was the ‘protect kids from Internet porn’ people, in the 2000s it was the ‘protect kids from violent video games’ and ‘stop Internet piracy’ people, I guess today it’s the ‘stop generative AI’ people. They are all children who think crying to Daddy will remake the ways of the world. It won’t.
One is banned because it can affect someone’s earnings, and is theft, the other is not banned because noone is harming another party by making a pencil drawing of a celebrity or scene.
I’m not talking about the copyright violation of sharing parts of a copyrighted movie. That is obviously infringement. I am talking about generated nude images.
If the pencil drawing is not harming anybody, is the photo realistic but completely hand-done painting somehow more harmful? Does it become even more harmful if you use AI to help with the painting?
If the pencil drawing is legal, and the AI generated deep fake is illegal, I am asking where exactly the line is. Because there is a whole spectrum between the two, so at what point does it become illegal?
It becomes harmful once you start selling it for profit based on its similarity to a real person.
Just so you know that does happen quite a lot on a small scale. Copyright law tends to be applied once a business pattern is established around the problematic content.
Some people get away with it selling at craft fairs and such and just noone ever hears about it.
I also would’ve expected nudity to be less taboo there. Would it have been just as likely to be arrested for sharing fully clothed still shots? That would actually make a lot more sense: distribution of copyrighted, non-promotional material.
I think the issue isn’t nudity but sexualization-- IE nude scene in context of a film is fine, chopping the nude scene out of the film is basically turning the actress into a porn star and that’s not fine. Same attitude is why the actress called it molestation. Different attitude as a society I guess.
It seems to me these scenes are introduced in films to sexualize them. Most often than not they don’t add anything to the story. But blood & sex get more viewers. So I find the whole thing hypocritical.
Brings me to mind an episode of the hilarious series “Coupling”, where Jeff says that the actress in the film “The Piano” (?) was naked in the whole film. His friends say she wasn’t, it was only a scene in the film. And Jeff replies “it depends on how you watch it” 🤣
I agree it’s hypocritical, but for different reasons.
I think a nude/sex scene can be important to the plot and add a lot to the story- in some situations. Yeah it’s often thrown in as eye candy to get more viewers, but sometimes it counts for a lot. Look at Season 1 of Game of Thrones for example- there’s a couple sex scenes with Dany and Khal Drogo, and IMHO that does a lot more to further the story than to show T&A-- the first one Dany’s basically being raped, but as the season goes on you see her start to fall in love with Drogo and it becomes more making love. Hard to get the same effect without sex scenes.
Same thing anytime you have two people in bed- crappy unrealistic TV sex where the girl never takes her shirt off and then cut to half a second later they’re both wrapped tightly but conveniently in sheets can break suspended disbelief.
So I can sympathize with an actor who agrees to artistic nude scenes or sex scenes because they’re important to the plot, but then has that specific 20 seconds of video taken out of context and circulated on porn sites.
At the same time, an actor doesn’t get to order the audience to experience the film in any certain way. Just as you say about ‘the piano’, it depends on how you watch it. It’s not illegal to buy the film, fast forward to the nude scenes, and stop watching when they’re done. So to think you get any sort of control over that is hypocritical, it’s like ordering a reader to read the entire book and not share passages with a friend.
Personally I disagree on value of sex/nude scenes – but it’s a subjective matter of course. Your final argument is absolutely fair and logical, and very general too. Extremely well put – I subscribe 110% to it!
Given the country in question, the actress’ nationality, and the writers name, this may be a simple translation misalignment. Molest doesn’t have the same weight in every language/region. Molest is more akin to “bother” in Spanish, for example.
I’m pretty sure she means molested as in abused or misused.
On a side note, as to the molesting aspect, I can’t see how this is any different than 14yo me having a couple of VHS tapes where the boob-parts were more worn than the rest of the tape. Or going frame by frame on the Taxi 2 DVD in the scene where Petra does kung fu in a skirt. Or golden child where the mythical woman behind the curtain is revealed. Or the shower/locker room scene in robocop. Or the bath scene in coming to America. Or the playboy mansion in Beverly Hills cop 2… Anyway I digress.
If you appear naked in a movie, expect teenage boys and creepy men to jerk off to you. Not the perfect world would be, I know. In the perfect world everyone would respect that the actress was only nude as an artistic choice, and it wasn’t meant to be spank bank material.
Copyright on the other hand, I thought that was just a civil law matter. Wonder why the guy was arrested.
Edit:
Oh shit, good thing that I don’t sail the seven seas, and definitely never has. 2 years ago a Danish guy got 30 days probation for doing less than some of my friends did in high school and university.
Generationsforskelle til trods lægger 57-årige Andrea Vagn Jensen og 23-årige Malaika Berenth Mosendane vægt på, at samtykket ryger, når klippene bliver taget ud af kontekst. Det samme fortæller Angela Bundalovic, der for nylig var aktuel i ‘Copenhagen Cowboy’, til DR:
»Jeg oplever det som en krænkelse, at nogen bruger et klip eller billede af mig i en kontekst, jeg ikke er gået med til. For mig hersker der ingen tvivl om at der bliver begået noget forkert mod skuespillernes frihed og materialets ophavsretshavere«.
Translated by yours truly:
Generational differences aside 57yo Andrea Vagn Jensen and 23yo Malaika Berenth Mosendane emphasizes that the consent is lost when the clips are removed from their context. It’s the same for Angela Bundalovic, who recently appeared in ‘Copenhagen Cowboy’, who tells DR [Danish national radio and TV]:
»I experience it as a violation, when someone uses a clip or still frame in a context, that I haven’t agreed to. In my mind there’s no doubt, that the freedom of the actors is being wronged as well as the copyright holders of the material«.
It is copyright infringement. As a copyright abolitionist, I don’t care.
Also, the outrage here is the belief that it is wrong to shown your naked body to a camera and then publishing it.
And now my warning, people who believe the naked body is shameful and that those who have shown their body have done something wrong. You are a monster, leave my planet before next month, or else …
Abuse? Molested? This is a load of shit. If they don’t want to be seen nude then don’t be filmed nude.
Yeah sorry this isn’t molestation, this is how media works in a digital connected world. The fact the entertainment industry has been denying the realities of their industry for 50 some odd years causes some head-scratching takes, like an actress being “molested” by someone jerking off to her in a scene they didnt pay for. No, sorry lady, once you expose the flesh to the camera you relinquish the right to keep it to yourself.
These stupid goddamn articles always trot out some actress or stagehand to humanize the ‘victims’ too, when its really just rich production companies losing money. Fuck everything about this.
Regretting doing a nude scene is humanizing. Making your regret someone else’s problem is just shitty all around.
This is also why I am thankful for the American first amendment.
It would appear that in that user’s country, it is considered additionally a crime to take the nude scene out of context.
I think a lot of people online take freedom of speech for granted, not realizing that many supposedly civilized countries have an increasing number of restrictions on unpopular speech, critical speech, or otherwise undesirable speech like this.
Make no mistake. The US is heading in the same direction. Look at the proposed anti-deepfake laws. That guy could be prosecuted extremely harshly under those.
It will be interesting to see that tested in court. I don’t think anyone would complain about for example a pencil sketch of a naked celebrity, that would be considered free speech and fair use even if it is a sketch of a scene from a movie.
So where does the line go? If the pencil sketch is legal, what if you do a digital sketch with Adobe illustrator and a graphics tablet? What if you use the Adobe AI function to help clean up the image? What if you take screen grabs of a publicity shot of the actor’s face and a nude image of someone else, and use them together to trace the image you end up painting? What if you then use AI to help you select colors and help shading? What if you do each of those processes individually but you have AI do each of them? That is not very functionally different from giving an AI a publicity shot and telling it to generate a nude image.
As I see it, The only difference between the AI deepfake and the fake produced by a skilled artist is the amount of time and effort required. And while that definitely makes it easy to turn out an awful lot of fakes, it’s bad policy to ban one and not the other simply based on the process by which the image was created.
It’s messy legislation all around. When does it become porn vs art vs just erotic or satirical? How do you prove it was a deep fake and not a lookalike? If I use a porn actress to make a deep fake is that also illegal or is it about how the original source content was intended to be used/consumed?
I’m not saying that we should just ignore these issues, but I don’t think any of this will be handled well by any government.
That’s easy. The movie studios know what post-production went into the scenes and have the documents to prove it. They can easily prove that such clips fall under deepfake laws.
Y’all need to be more cynical. These lobby groups do not make arguments because they believe in them, but because it gets them what they want.
I was responding to an above comment. The guy who was arrested in op’s article was posting clips from movies (so not deep fakes).
That being said, for deepfakes, you’d need the original video to prove it was deepfaked. Additionally, you’d then probably need to prove they used a real person to make the deep fake. Nowadays it’s easy to make “fake” people using AI. Not sure where the law sits on creating deepfakes of fake people who resemble other people.
I didn’t make the point clear. The original scenes themselves, as released by the studio, may qualify as “deepfakes”. A little bit of digital post-processing can be enough to qualify them under the proposed bills. Then sharing them becomes criminal, fair use be damned.
Actually I was thinking about this some more and I think there is a much deeper issue.
With the advent of generative AI, photographs can no longer be relied upon as documentary evidence.
There’s the old saying, ‘pics or it didn’t happen’, which flipped around means sharing pics means it did happen.
But if anyone can generate a photo realistic image from a few lines of text, then pictures don’t actually prove anything unless you have some bulletproof way to tell which pictures are real and which are generated by AI.
And that’s the real point of a lot of these laws, to try and shove the genie back in the bottle. You can ban deep fake porn and order anyone who makes it to be drawn in quartered, you can an AI watermark it’s output but at the end of the day the genie is out of the bottle because someone somewhere will write an AI that ignores the watermark and pass the photos off as real.
I’m open to any possible solution, but I’m not sure there is one. I think this genie may be out of the bottle for good, or at least I’m not seeing any way that it isn’t. And if that’s the case, perhaps the only response that doesn’t shred civil liberties is to preemptively declare defeat, acknowledge that photographs are no longer proof of anything, and deal with that as a society.
One solution that’s been proposed is to cryptographic ally sign content. This way someone can prove they “made” the content. It doesn’t prove the content is real, but means you can verify the originator.
However, at the end of the day, you’re still stuck with needing to decide who you trust.
Probably the best idea yet. It’s definitely not foolproof though. Best you could do is put a security chip in the camera that digitally signs the pictures, but that is imperfect because eventually someone will extract the key or figure out how to get the camera to sign pictures of their choosing that weren’t taken by the camera.
A creator level key is more likely, so you choose who you trust.
But most of the pictures that would be taken as proof of anything probably won’t be signed by one of those.
I’m fine with photos don’t prove anything.
Let statists cry about that one, cry little statists that you can’t inflict pain in that justified way that you love so much.
I’m not fine with that, as it will have wide-ranging repercussions on society at large that aren’t all good.
But I fully accept it as the cold hard reality that WILL happen now that the genie’s out of the bottle, and the reality that any ham-fisted legal attempt to rebottle the genie will be far worse for society and only delay the inevitable acceptance that photographs are no longer proof.
And as such, I (and most other adults mature enough to accept a less-than-preferred reality as reality) stand with you and give the statists the middle finger, along with everyone else who thinks you can legislate any genie back into its bottle. In the 1990s it was the ‘protect kids from Internet porn’ people, in the 2000s it was the ‘protect kids from violent video games’ and ‘stop Internet piracy’ people, I guess today it’s the ‘stop generative AI’ people. They are all children who think crying to Daddy will remake the ways of the world. It won’t.
I am infinitely more worried about the backlash and the enclosers than the tech itself.
Same as anything else, if it causes someone harm (in american financial harm counts) it gets regulated.
There are exceptions to allow people to disregard laws as well. Its legal to execute a death row prisoner.
One is banned because it can affect someone’s earnings, and is theft, the other is not banned because noone is harming another party by making a pencil drawing of a celebrity or scene.
I’m not talking about the copyright violation of sharing parts of a copyrighted movie. That is obviously infringement. I am talking about generated nude images.
If the pencil drawing is not harming anybody, is the photo realistic but completely hand-done painting somehow more harmful? Does it become even more harmful if you use AI to help with the painting?
If the pencil drawing is legal, and the AI generated deep fake is illegal, I am asking where exactly the line is. Because there is a whole spectrum between the two, so at what point does it become illegal?
It becomes harmful once you start selling it for profit based on its similarity to a real person.
Just so you know that does happen quite a lot on a small scale. Copyright law tends to be applied once a business pattern is established around the problematic content.
Some people get away with it selling at craft fairs and such and just noone ever hears about it.
Guess if they pass we’ll see how they stand up to the 1st.
I also would’ve expected nudity to be less taboo there. Would it have been just as likely to be arrested for sharing fully clothed still shots? That would actually make a lot more sense: distribution of copyrighted, non-promotional material.
I think the issue isn’t nudity but sexualization-- IE nude scene in context of a film is fine, chopping the nude scene out of the film is basically turning the actress into a porn star and that’s not fine. Same attitude is why the actress called it molestation. Different attitude as a society I guess.
It seems to me these scenes are introduced in films to sexualize them. Most often than not they don’t add anything to the story. But blood & sex get more viewers. So I find the whole thing hypocritical.
Brings me to mind an episode of the hilarious series “Coupling”, where Jeff says that the actress in the film “The Piano” (?) was naked in the whole film. His friends say she wasn’t, it was only a scene in the film. And Jeff replies “it depends on how you watch it” 🤣
I agree it’s hypocritical, but for different reasons.
I think a nude/sex scene can be important to the plot and add a lot to the story- in some situations. Yeah it’s often thrown in as eye candy to get more viewers, but sometimes it counts for a lot. Look at Season 1 of Game of Thrones for example- there’s a couple sex scenes with Dany and Khal Drogo, and IMHO that does a lot more to further the story than to show T&A-- the first one Dany’s basically being raped, but as the season goes on you see her start to fall in love with Drogo and it becomes more making love. Hard to get the same effect without sex scenes.
Same thing anytime you have two people in bed- crappy unrealistic TV sex where the girl never takes her shirt off and then cut to half a second later they’re both wrapped tightly but conveniently in sheets can break suspended disbelief.
So I can sympathize with an actor who agrees to artistic nude scenes or sex scenes because they’re important to the plot, but then has that specific 20 seconds of video taken out of context and circulated on porn sites.
At the same time, an actor doesn’t get to order the audience to experience the film in any certain way. Just as you say about ‘the piano’, it depends on how you watch it. It’s not illegal to buy the film, fast forward to the nude scenes, and stop watching when they’re done. So to think you get any sort of control over that is hypocritical, it’s like ordering a reader to read the entire book and not share passages with a friend.
Personally I disagree on value of sex/nude scenes – but it’s a subjective matter of course. Your final argument is absolutely fair and logical, and very general too. Extremely well put – I subscribe 110% to it!
Given the country in question, the actress’ nationality, and the writers name, this may be a simple translation misalignment. Molest doesn’t have the same weight in every language/region. Molest is more akin to “bother” in Spanish, for example.
I’m pretty sure she means molested as in abused or misused.
On a side note, as to the molesting aspect, I can’t see how this is any different than 14yo me having a couple of VHS tapes where the boob-parts were more worn than the rest of the tape. Or going frame by frame on the Taxi 2 DVD in the scene where Petra does kung fu in a skirt. Or golden child where the mythical woman behind the curtain is revealed. Or the shower/locker room scene in robocop. Or the bath scene in coming to America. Or the playboy mansion in Beverly Hills cop 2… Anyway I digress.
If you appear naked in a movie, expect teenage boys and creepy men to jerk off to you. Not the perfect world would be, I know. In the perfect world everyone would respect that the actress was only nude as an artistic choice, and it wasn’t meant to be spank bank material.
Copyright on the other hand, I thought that was just a civil law matter. Wonder why the guy was arrested.
Edit: Oh shit, good thing that I don’t sail the seven seas, and definitely never has. 2 years ago a Danish guy got 30 days probation for doing less than some of my friends did in high school and university.
I’ve got another addition to my comment, but it does warrant more attention than an edit.
So I’ve found a Danish language interview on this topic, from earlier this year, so before the man in this story was arrested.
From https://soundvenue.com/film/2023/05/nej-danske-skuespillere-er-ikke-selv-uden-om-det-naar-deres-sexscener-bliver-delt-paa-reddit-522555
Translated by yours truly:
The police even has a statement on the matter which I suggest that you run through your preferred translation service https://politi.dk/national-enhed-for-saerlig-kriminalitet/nyhedsliste/39-aarig-anholdt-for-at-dele-noegenscener-fra-film/2024/09/03
This isn’t Spanish (I speak it), it’s also the same word in Danish according to the dictionary.
It is copyright infringement. As a copyright abolitionist, I don’t care.
Also, the outrage here is the belief that it is wrong to shown your naked body to a camera and then publishing it.
And now my warning, people who believe the naked body is shameful and that those who have shown their body have done something wrong. You are a monster, leave my planet before next month, or else …