I am shocked. Shocked! /s
Just make a good browser… Thats all I care about from mozilla.
I understand that they need to diversify so that they’re not so dependent on Google’s default search engine money. I don’t know how they should do that.
But I’m not sure what they’ve been doing has been all that good of an idea.
They’re 80% dependent on google there is no choice. Mozilla’s behaviour since they got the google deal was the begining of the end. I honestly believe that due to Mozilla’s current leadership it would be best for open source developers to all refocus on the ladybird project. I don’t have any affiliation to that project and I understand how huge of an undertaking it is to build a web engine from scratch but the gecko engine is polluted by the Mozilla’s execs and by extension Google.
To make it clear Google controls Firefox by, in practice, owning an 80% share of Mozilla.
make their browser engine useable for 3rd parties and sell support, make an electron-like product and add premium features… there are so many browser-based products that people sell, and owning 1 of the only viable browser engines should be huge… the fact that firefox is still only barely able to be embedded is a travesty
it’d be especially valuable if they made a premium electron product that provided security/privacy guarantees, performance benefits, etc - they should siphon some of the profit off the number of for-profit companies that build electron apps
I kinda like the idea but I also kinda hate it.
I really wish PWAs worked properly cross-platform instead. :(
SSB was killed after it sat behind an about:config flag, then their telemetry (that most power users disable) reported folks weren’t using. But what average users would be using a setting they would need to poke around to find. It’s a real shame too since I want to say it was PeppermintOS that was largely built around PWAs.
That sounds dumb. :(
Pretty standard for Mozilla logic if you have watched the features cut over the years.
well paying execs multimillion dollar salaries aint helping thats for sure!
How about some A.I. bullshit in your browser?
Well …
with how many singular developers managed to do it based on Firefox when Mozilla couldn’t pull their shit together, idk why anyone would still be holding their breath. just switch to a competent fork.
most forks still use the firefox base
that’s what’s i said, but they’re all better functioning than firefox
But without the base they can’t operate
but there is a base, and it isn’t good. the forks are. you said you want a good browser. they’re not making it. the forks are good. idk what you’re arguing about.
Most forks take an ESR version and build on top of that. Who is gonna make that ESR base?
You’re saying the equivalent of ‘I don’t care about the Linux kernel cause Ubuntu is better and everyone should use that’ of arguments.
Not saying you are literally saying ^
have I said anywhere that Firefox should cease to exist or Mozilla shouldn’t do security patches or whatever because i thought we were talking about having a good browser experience.
They don’t know how to do that and never did.
It’s always been “Uhhh let’s have people make Firefox accounts, yeah!” When, in this day and age, the last thing people need is yet another account to keep track of.
“Lets get into AI, yeah!” Said no one ever.
Like, is it too much to fucking ask for a simple, privacy-centric, security (not overreaching), performance priority browser?
I mean look around how many forks of Firefox that there are out there, having to do the legwork because Firefox isn’t that much of the shit it thinks it is.
I’ve never understood the argument. It seems to have kind of been collectively hallucinated into existence by waves of internet comment sections over the years. But these aren’t mutually exclusive, and nobody has made a case that the resources for these other features are compromising the ability to deliver core browser functionality.
They also seem to assume that it’s development decisions, rather than Google leveraging its search dominance and financial muscle, that are tied to changes in market share. I actually think these value-adds can be good, can punch above their weight and can, if they are smart in picking their spots, do so without necessarily compromising their ability to advance the development of Firefox.
And nobody ever stops, breathes in and out, collects the evidence and makes the actual case. It’s just kind of assumed, asserted, repeated, assumed again, repeated again ad nauseum. Because enough people have seen other people say it, so they say it too knowing it leads to upvotes.
The ones closest to citing evidence, thankfully understanding at least how a real argument would actually work, are also the most unhinged, which probably isn’t a coincidence.
Why would I take the time and energy out of my day to jump through hoops to prove my case. At the very likely chance that someone like you will refute it anyways and waive it off like you did with my comment?
Not worth it.
Are they still running a matrix instance?
I would be mad if this would be next to fall since I use it. I don’t self-host Matrix since it is too expensive built on a fundamental ‘eventual consistency’ model mirroring all text & attatchments for all usersmin every DM & room—not to mention the Python implementation server & even the Rust one use much more system resources than other open chat options. It’s the same for Mastodon specifically too which but Ruby this time—with eventual consistency chewing up GiBs of storage making small players shut down instances. I would not be surprised that it fell next just based on cost.
Wanting to get folks off proprietary garbage like Slack, Telegram, & Discord was the right idea but moving to Matrix will prove to be a mistake as nodes are too expensive to run therefore leads to the centralization we need to escape. With the poor performance of the flagship Element client too, casual users think it is too damn slow (literally takes 2 minutes to even get to a screen with text in my browser & it isn’t even done syncing).
I wonder when they will stop that, too.
So they aren’t exiting the fediverse. The whole premise of the article is wrong.
I think “the Fediverse” is generally understood to refer to ActivityPub-based projects, or even more narrowly, “things that can be seen from Mastodon”. At least I understood it as such, even if that’s not technically correct.
Nah. Its federated services. Matrix is part I’d the fediverse. Email is too.
As of August 2024, diaspora* is the only actively developed project classified under the tradition fediverse term that doesn’t support ActivityPub.
Wow! I didn’t know that Google and Microsoft are huge fediverse supporters! Email lovers ftw!!!
And yet people are still angry when I say that Mozilla is malicious.
Closing down an instance you chose to run is malicious? If you cannot fully moderate it, it can tank your reputation. The labour cost isn’t insignificant and is not something they should be focussing on.
Why are they angry?
I don’t know. I haven’t asked them. I have just seen the downvotes on my post(s) that were related to bashing Mozilla on Lemmy.
Mozilla 2012: We’re winning the browser war and saving the web. You’re welcome.
Mozilla 2017: Competing with Chrome is hard. What if we break all existing extensions and never let people replace them all?
Mozilla 2021: Through inclusiveness and the power of positive thinking we will facilitate leadership towards in-depth studies of what we can do to improve social media.
Mozilla 2024: Running a small mastodon instance is just too hard, we give up.
Just a little comment on 2021: It seems disingenuous, from their perspective. Steve Teixeira, In a lawsuit, is claiming that not only did Mozilla try to get him to fire employees who were disproportionately minorities, but they were within a group that was producing a profit for Mozilla.
In other words, Mozilla might have been preaching inclusivity publicly while practicing exclusivity privately.
Corporate only pay lip services to the public? I’m so shock! Shock I tell you!
Color me shocked
what is even happening right now
Mozilla in early 2000s: We’re glad we’ve broken you away from Internet Explorer’s chains. You’re welcome.
Mozilla 2017: Competing with Chrome is hard. What if we break all existing extensions and never let people replace them all?
This is the one that broke my back. Understandable that XPCOM extensions had to go, but leaving nothing to replace them, and then going on to push their trash UI redesigns without giving us any recourse to change them back - that was just unforgivable.
Then again, that was still well before they started pushing spyware in their own browser, so in retrospect, those were very quaint times!
Perhaps they didn’t want to associate with Meta.
How defeatist of you, Mozilla. Whatever happened to your pride? Oh, it went a long time ago when you make a big deal about going 3.0 and how you claimed to have improved Firefox’s performance. Been a long time, but Firefox remains ever more the same as it did way back then, just cluttered with more features that weighs it’s performance.
“Features”
I don’t get why, I can’t see this be difficult or costly to run, but then again I have no clue, never ran a Mastodon instance.
I would assume that it’s not worth the small reach compared to running X / Bluesky / Threads accounts but then again, like I said, the cost must be super small. 🤷
Running the server probably costs about $100 per year, plus one person’s $180,000 salary
I’m not sure why they created one to begin with
If Mozilla doesn’t discontinue a Mastodon server with under 300 people, how will it continue funding the $65 million AI and venture capital investments they’ve been making?! 😬
GoogleMozilla shutting down yet another project:Can we all just use a “bad browser” that isn’t “as good” as these exploitative mainstream browsers by specifically giving up on websites that require a browser that exploits us? We shouldn’t need to be exploited.
That’s what I do!
Website don’t work? I immediately leave and don’t think about it ever again
Yeah! Websites be too needy.
Hmm why cant they move to a pre hosted mastodon server
Does it matter that they don’t run an instance?
As long as they have accounts and keep them up to date, that is the main thing.
How many open source projects actually run and moderate instances?
The effectiveness of the internet as a public resource depends upon interoperability (protocols, data formats, content), innovation and decentralized participation worldwide.
- Mozilla Manifesto, Principle 6, emphasis mine
So how does not running a virtual soapbox that is niche and most do not care about affect the public’s ability to participate in the internet from where they are?
I’m not sure if you didn’t understand the point or are cherry picking words to satiate your feelings?
Because if Mozilla can’t practice what it preaches, while it spews $65 million of venture capital at AI companies, something is wrong.
And I’m not cherry picking words, I’m responding to your question with their answer: centralization and non-interoperability are problems, and decentralization with interoperable protocols is the answer they propose.
Btw, I scanned through some of your posts and noticed you aren’t a fan of AI either. While running this little social network and GenAI do not have to be mutually exclusive, Steve Teixeira was fired because he refused to “innovate” in GenAI and, if I recall correctly, Mozilla.social was one of his projects.
You might not care about the lives of birds, but if a canary in the coal mine dies…
Something is wrong.
They do not propose them for the internet, simply opting out of hosting Mastodon. A glorified look at me RSS feed with built in validation (likes). They’re not even suggesting they’ll move away from posting on it. You probably guessed I never really liked xitter so the alternative is quite meaningless to me. I just want a browser not run by Google.
I do not believe in GenAI and do believe it’ll fail. I do not believe I’m guaranteed to be right. Folk seem to like confidently incorrect answers and are hooked on them. Mozilla need to diversify their revenue streams and maybe they get it right. If users expect that integration, and rivals do it, then they will perceive it as rubbish and not use it or move to it, which could be a failure.
I do not know this Steve chap, but I do know devs are asked to work on stuff and if they refuse, they’re not doing their job. In that case, you do it, or leave. He got fired and ultimately if he wasn’t running it, they even find someone else (was there anyone willing?) or can it. It got canned. No dev really chooses their workload, just how they go about it.
It’s less suspicious than you want it to be.
It’s wild to see a Mozilla defender throw away their own beliefs and principles in order to defend a corporation wasting $65 million.
I do not buy “Mozilla must diversify” which slips in the assumption that they are diversifying into the right thing, the “right thing” in this case being AI and other random crap, including a direct competitor to their own Relay service. If you believe this, you need to deal with the cognitive dissonance that comes from this, and explain the basis for why you believe in them while simultaneously believing in the opposite of them.
And if you don’t know about the Steve Teixeira lawsuit, and you are still being authentic, you’ll have an even harder time reckoning with that. I don’t know how you drilled this deep into a conversation without stumbling across it, but my hope in your honesty springs eternal.
You must be one of the few that do not believe they should diversify. Most Mozilla haters criticise the fact they are dependent on Google money and therefore not independent. I did not say it was the right thing. I said I do not believe it is, but iI could be wrong. Not sure if you aware about humility.
It is not cognitive dissidence to believe positive and negative things about a company or thing. It’s call a balanced decision. It requires nuance, a key component in adult decision making. Usually children struggle with that as something is all great or all bad. Black and white thinking isn’t really fit for the adult world.
You are surprised that you are supposed to back up your opinions and bring references to a discussion. This is the first time I have heard of this Steve guy. If you think it’s common knowledge, you’ve probably been stuck too deep in the Mozilla haters echo chamber.
You must be one of the few that do not believe they should diversify
This is an incorrect read of what I said. I said I don’t buy the assumption that Mozilla is diversifying into anything good:
If you believe this, you need to deal with the cognitive dissonance that comes from this, and explain the basis for why you believe in them while simultaneously believing in the opposite of them.
Unlike you, I provided explicit examples of bad diversification, where are your examples of the good?
You are surprised that you are supposed to back up your opinions and bring references to a discussion.
I am definitely starting to hate #Mozilla.
As a remark: I have always been fine with their deal with Pocket and having Google as their default search engine. In the end, there are bills to be paid.
Until I learned that e.g. Mozilla Corporation’s CEO is on a multi-million dollar salary, and they’re hiring ai and ad people.
Not OK for an entity where many highly skilled people code for free.
It’s not what users want the cash to be spent on.
Leaving the Fedi is the final drop
@mina @dantheclamman if so many people code for free, couldn’t they have a simple Mastodon server run by a tech community? I think the actual leadership has no idea what Mozilla Foundation was.
It seems like the kind of thing the Foundation would run anyway (or sponsor as a separate project), rather than the Corporation being involved at all.
Running a simple Mastodon server is not a big thing.
Setting up a resilient big instance, like Vivaldi does, requires commitment.
I mean vivaldi is 1/10th the size of mozilla and running a server 5x as large
Exactly! Mozilla wants people to know, they don’t give a shit.
A few years of party for executives are still possible, and just before Firefox and Thunderbird go into oblivion, quickly into a new management position at an ai company (or whatever may be the hype, then).
Mark my words!
I was cool with them buying Pocket. But as a long time user of Pocket, I feel it has horribly stagnated. Far more features have been lost than have been gained.
You are the product. All they care about is getting companies paying
Stagnation is Mozilla’s MO. Fuck, go look at Thunderbird and be transported back to the 90’s.
Even Microsoft is updating outlook - fucking outlook is innovating, Outlook being the cancer on email that’s held it back for decades, is being updated.
Thunderbird is a perfect app, it does not need to change.
And JFC the monthly subscription price for Pocket is steep for what it offers.
Yes, I’m grandfathered into the old cost, or I’d definitely pivot and move to Omnivore
Why does it matter that they don’t run an instance? Most open source projects do not.
As long as they keep an account on an instance and keep it up to date, this is the main thing.
Hate is a strong emotional decision for a company making an internet browser…
Wasn’t by far my only point.
However: Making a commitment and then pulling back, is a statement.
No. It’s trying something. If company’s get punished for investing and trying something, others won’t even try in future. I respect they tried. If I was in charge, I wouldn’t have bothered.
I wonder, how increasing CEO pay year by year worked out for them.
Certainly, definitely not in growing the user base, but also not in revenue that would make up it.
Separate issue entirely. I’m talking specifically about Fediverse investment and why that was the final straw.
I thought the discussion was about that and not a “I hate Mozilla” greatest hits.
You can always throw in that Google fund them and a 10 year old bug that hasn’t been resolved if that was your purpose.
I guess ranting can help you feel better, so I hope it helped.
You did not read the entire post you first replied to, did you?
I read it, just had nothing to add.
For the record, I disagree with the AI funding, CEO pay and pocket stuff. It doesn’t make me hate them though. They build the biggest open source alternative to Google dictating standards for web. That’s massive. I strongly dislike google for a multitude of reasons and hating a company that challenges that is a strange position to take. If Firefox goes, we’re mega fucked.
Maybe place your anger with the actual bad actors in the browser space.
I think you might be overestimating how much code is contributed by unpaid volunteers…
did an AI become their CEO by now? dumb moz foundation.
Unfortunate, but not unexpected.
I guess hating Mozilla is very much in fashion. The tech chatterati have made it so.
They’ll move on, as they always do. I just hope Firefox is still here.
Critiquing Mozilla when they make mistakes is not the same as hating them. It is healthy to keep these organizations accountable
The issue is all signs point to them pivoting to AI and ad driven nonsense - they’ll move on, but if the product goes to shit so will I. The rest is noise.
