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it’s gross and I hate it and stop it right now
I’m going to say it before anyone else does.
Linux.
Damnit, I came in here to post:
And the wind… whispers… Linux
Succeeding you, Windows
As much as i agree, the vast majority of people will just continue using what they had before, and still complain about how nothing works
Oh, I agree. I did however manage to talk my mom into letting me put Mint on her PC and she hasn’t complained even once. Small victories.
Same here. I installed Fedora on my old dev laptop, that my mom uses now, and she’s been really happy with it. Says everything just makes sense, coming from windows
and the vast majority of Linux Devs will just continue building what they were building before, and still complain how windows users dont migrate to Linux (cough usability cough)
If linux came preinstalled by default and vendor supported, regular people would use linux as well. Usability is actually pretty good these days, arguably higher than Windows since you don’t have to deal with this BS.
Yes, you can buy Dell laptops with Ubuntu preinstalled and supported, maybe Lenovos, not sure, but it’s not the default, available only on custom builds online and on business (expensive) laptops, so most regular people don’t bother.
Edit: well, there’s the SteamDeck as an example of mainstream vendor supported system with linux, I guess. Some people go through the trouble of installing Windows on it, but most people don’t bother and stick to what it came with.
The Steam Deck is the best thing to happen to Linux since… Linux. It’s the first time average tech illiterate folks have gotten a taste of Linux on their own systems, and it’s driven the development of compatibility tools (Proton) to a hitherto-unheard-of degree.
It convinced me to switch to Linux.
Before SteamDeck comes. I am between KDE, Gnome and Xfce. But, after I bought a Steam Deck. I am now totally KDe Plasma users on my desktop and steam deck
KDE used to be the feature complete, heavy, memory intensive DE. But now we aren’t running Linux on abandoned laptops but on modern hardware. The average PC is so powerful that it’s completely irrelevant. All in on KDE/Plasma as well
I feel bad for anyone with no linux experience who bought a steam deck. There’s a good amount of weirdness with the UI sometimes, and modifying desktop mode controls can lead to it ignoring inputs until steam launches on occasion.
I know these issues stem from this being a brand new device with a brand new form factor, using whacky proprietary track pads and shit. But someone who’s only used windows might attribute them to linux and be left with a bad taste.
It’s good that the Ally exists so we can have a windows handheld to compare against.
This. People buy hardware and use whatever comes with it.
This is why and how ChromeOS became used. Google didn’t just put it on a website, they got manufacturers to make products with it.
The only reason I don’t switch to Linux is because of all the nerds on here telling everyone to switch to Linux.
But seriously, I use my laptop for work and I’ve used Windows for years and know how it works. I don’t want to switch to a completely new OS that I don’t have a clue how to use, especially when I need it for work. I also don’t know whether the software I use will work on it either.
If there’s an easy tutorial and a way of knowing whether everything I need will work, I might consider trying it.
haha lol yeah we do get a bit annoying here … For me it’s the opposite though, I use linux for work, and I’ve used it for so long I almost forgot what Windows looks like.
It’s silly how people react to this, a feature that can be turned off with a simple setting toggle, by recommending that people should instead install a whole new operating system and tech stack. If opening the preferences menu and clicking a toggle is too complicated or too much of a hassle then installing Linux isn’t going to be better.
It’s not just one thing. It’s been a barrage of crap for years and years. That pile of manure gets awfully heavy as you make it taller.
As an example. they still haven’t fixed the Settings/Control Panel stuff. That has been in the works for what, over a decade now? A core feature just…allowed to rot.
It isn’t about flipping a switch, it about how many times I’ve had to flip that fucking switch because a company keeps changing how I have my PC setup because they want more money.
They’ve never had this feature before.
And as far as I’m aware Copilot is a free service.
This is an unpopular opinion every time I bring it up. Usability and consistency sucks in Linux. There are just so many basic things that will frustrate users coming from Windows. I can’t even get my laptop (Framework 13) to sleep properly. Then there are is still a ton where you have to use the command line to get it done. A user shouldn’t have to go into the command line to get their fingerprint reader to work because the GUI doesn’t work properly.
The only thing that actually makes Linux practical for average users these days is that most everything is now web based by default so most users only interact with a couple programs for most of their day.
The Linux community really needs to get some UX experts in their projects and actually make an effort to improve usability rather than just doing it the way they like to do it.
And windows is full of simple things that are just as broken. And constantly makes changes (OP being another in a long list of examples) injecting obvious advertising masquerading as features.
Windows certainly isn’t perfect, but though familiarity and at minimum exposing a reasonable amount through the GUI, way more users can use Windows daily without issues.
The advertising and tracking, that’s the big problem, I don’t see a currently acceptable OS solution once Windows 10 is EOL.
Most of the issues you describe are because usually computers come with Windows preinstalled with all the drivers and configuration set up by the oem to “just work”, so replacing the OS inevitably means fiddling with it. People who e.g. try to install Windows on a SteamDeck will face similar difficulties.
I’ve been dabbling with Ubuntu for my home assistant and my Plex media server and every damn time I find myself asking ‘why isn’t there a GUI for that?!’
Please keep saying that to my bosses until they listen.
I will if you want.
I’ll help also
We can get some penguin themed camping gear and clothes and post up in front of their bosses’ house and have loud conversations about Linux.
I’ll bring the snacks!
These words are accepted!
I’m only in if it comes with a Clippy skin.
Ahead of it’s time by decades
So seductive
Perhaps I’m just brain dead, I’ve been accused of it often enough, but I can’t figure out what the stupid thing is good for.
That depends; do you mean good for the user, or good for the company? 😉
I don’t know, isn’t it a huge money sink rn?
I don’t really like it, but it can defintly be used as a dumb assistant. E.g. if you want to write an email or a small script to analyze some data, you can tell it what you need, specify the details, take the results, correct them and then use the results. You still have to do much of the work, but if you do it correctly you’ll save time. BUT: It’ll save all of that. Don’t do this with sensitive data and don’t do this for work without official permission of the employer.
This is my experience. It creates a starting point for emails and things but it’s not at all “intelligent”.
Spying on you. Influencing your results.
It helps sometimes with code, when I can’t find a solution on Google.
Lately I’ve been using it as a duckduckgo replacement.
…well chatgpt free version, that is. Seems like everyone has an “AI” now.
Don’t do that.
Depending on which CoPilot, quite a lot to be honest.
My company uses it at work integrated into Visual Studio Professional.
It saves countless hours, especially when you work on enterprise software and have set up good coding standards, best practices, and techniques; as it learns from your code and will offer suggestions based on how we do things.
Like most TypeScript components we build are going to require loading some data via a hook, and calling these hooks is pretty consistent. So now I basically write my comment // load the data and boom no boring writing the same thing.
We save that much time on mundane tasks that we can actually spend more time learning new things or innovating.
That’s before we even get into the tool my boss build that will allow us to create all the schema and hooks for a new model which would normally be 30-45 mins of mundane copy and paste and replace.
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I use LLMs when I am trying to reverse lookup a word from a definition. Works better than web searches.
I’ve only been using Linux for a few days. Am I allowed to have a superiority complex yet?
Nah, Linux is too mainstream, its more like a soft drug.
If you want the REAL GOOD STUFF you need to daily drive 9Front.
It is not about mainstream or not, it is a about superiority.
I wanted to make a Plan9 joke, didn’t even realize that there were new iterations, cool.
I’ve been roaming Linux (meme) communities for years, but never heard of this, even though it originates from the Bell Labs. Thanks for providing me with a new rabbit hole!
He mentions the good stuff and doesn’t even touch on TempleOS
Only if you use Arch btw.
I use Arch, btw
(But it’s Manjaro)
I use manjaro, but I used to use arch btw
I tried both, succeeded at both, but chose Manjaro btw
When I built my next computer I was just too short on time to build arch btw, that’s when it didn’t have an installer btw. Manjaro was the next best thing.
Manjaro is the best best thing, and Arch btw comes second
Btw, if you just need a quick Arch install, there is an EndeavourOS, or simply an archinstall script.
Manjaro is very different on a technical side, it’s not just “easy arch btw”
Hello and welcome to the Linux club! Remember to always mention Linux as your OS as much as you can and add “btw”.
I run Arch btw.
Done and done, thank you for the warm reception.
I run
archmint btw
Absolutely, that is legal from the first second of use.
After this news? Don’t feel the smug all atbonce or you will fucking die.
Good to know, I’ll be careful not to indulge too much! Though I did it proper with a Thinkpad as well so I may overdose anyway haha
When did Microsoft forget how to do stuff? No one ever said: Wow! I really, really like being forced to use something! My reaction to being forced to use it didn’t instantly diminish my desire to use this product!
Even IF their product is good, they crush my desire to try it with shit like this.
Ultimately, most people stay with the default option, that’s why they have to be aggressive. Look at the amount of screenshots even in advanced PC communities with ugly useless search bar enabled, which is taking 1/3 of the taskbar. I’m not even speaking about casual users who have no idea that it can be disabled.
yeah, it’s fucking exhausting to go through and disable the 10’s or 100’s of options they set by default that you don’t want. I have a computer that I have disabled updates on because they kept resetting my deeper configs with updates. I’m not getting another windows computer unless I have to because god that shit took so long to set up.
Why not leave the defaults as-is? They’re probably set like that for a reason.
So they have to be aggressive by automatically adding garbage nobody wants because otherwise people won’t bother activating said garbage they don’t want?
No, because most people stick with the default option regardless.
I’m just trying to understand my our point… You argue they have to do this because people won’t bother on their own… Then proceed to back your statement with an example where MS added garbage and people don’t bother or can’t figure to remove it…
I mean, you and I known MS could simply ask… They don’t because they want that slide that says x many million users of Copilot…
I mean, you and I known MS could simply ask…
No.
https://thedecisionlab.com/intervention/how-default-settings-doubled-organ-donation-rates-in-the-us https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3855900/ https://sparq.stanford.edu/solutions/opt-out-policies-increase-organ-donation https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3458339/
That’s the best known case, but it’s not limited to organ donation of course.
they want that slide that says x many million users of Copilot…
I didn’t argue with that.
That doesn’t mean they can’t… At most it means is less advantageous for their goals… Screw the user
Not sure what you mean. Do you know about Active Desktop in Win98? They’ve been doing shit like this since forever.
Sums it up right there. Goes for most of tech in the past decade or so though. Lots of incremental upgrades and nothing really mind blowing. Imo AI is not. At least not yet.
classic microsoft, shoving things down users’ throats without consent.
How else could they ever claim the millions in “adoption” of their products?
It would be the year of Linux on desktop tomorrow if ever known brand of PC came with it preinstalled
¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Users not putting their foot down and switching to a different OS is all the consent they need. I dropped windows a few years ago when I felt they were just getting too invasive.
I’ve seen movies about this. Usually there’s tears involved.
I do think that microsoft copilot is good enough for alot of people. I really like it, much more than chat gpt. And that they give you “GPT 4” for free which is cool
Would I love it being forced? No
They will create the same situation as Ubuntu Snap. Is Snap bad? Actually not. Is everything else regarding Snap like Snap Store or the fact that they force it down your throat good? No
Copilot likes you back! Actually it has fallen in love with you. Now it downloads automatically wherever you go. Even in the shower when you’re pretending to not touch yourself. Oh it knows everything! C’mon think about purchasing someth…too late! It’s already delivered! Pilot cancelled your meeting with Stacy Fredrickson. It’s jealous of her. But don’t worry because pilot can have any boob size you prefer. In fact pilot is any ethnicity you are attracted to and is waiting for you in bed right now. Just pick up the various items from the porch to make a sensitive feedback gizmo so you can pilot can be together foreve…30 years or so per the contract. Anyway, Microsoft is proud to present pilot. Pilot would like you to please call her Jessica. And if you use your last name with her, she will get you optimized seating and personalized flight paths.
Relevant movie!
lol
How do you like it better than chat gpt? Isn’t it the same thing?
Not exactly, ChatGPT is OpenAI’s GPT interface. Whereas CoPilot is Microsoft’s, and has a bunch of plugins and tweaks to suit their uses. The underlying model is the same, but not the customisation.
Think of it like different flavours of Android. Samsung, Google, and Nothing all have their own spins, even if they all run Android under the hood.
Also ChatGPT 4 is paid but Copilot is free
For 30 usages though. Good backup if ChatGPT fails to give you a good answer.
What plugins?
Unclear, as I don’t work for Microsoft. But searching Bing isn’t part of the default GPT function set, that’s at least one proprietary one that they’ve specifically done up for their own uses.
And I notice that after today/yesterday’s update, my Win11 machine “helpfully” put a Copilot icon in my taskbar without asking me. Thanks?
I poleaxed it in the registry. Yes, I saw the toggle in taskbar settings. No, I don’t care. Disable that shit. Get it off my computer.
I wonder if Microsoft will get the point if people keep asking it “Can I use msconfig to disable copilot?”
msconfig for those unaware:
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It already does on my laptop. They also keep setting my default browser back to Edge. I don’t use my laptop much anymore and keeping up with the BS of having to disable stuff I don’t want running has become tiresome to the point where I don’t even want to use it.
I know, I know, something something install Linux! Question I have there is my laptop is a gaming laptop so my question to all you Linux folks is. Can I continue to game using Linux. Will it work with my Nvidia Graphics card and Steam. If so I might consider it.
Yes you can game on Linux. Lookup your games on ProtonDB to see if they are all compatible. Most games run fine unless they have kernel level anticheat that stops them from running. On Steam, you just have to enable Proton and windows games will install normally.
Ppl tend to sugarcoat Linux to new users, so let me make a reality check: gaming is possible on Linux, but in a limited sense, and it might cost time and sanity.
Some games work natively, some need a workaround, some require you to craft your own solution, and some straight up won’t.
The percentages shift, where there’s slightly more games working natively or requiring a basic workaround, but the baseline is the same.
I dont have a windows machine, i game exclusively on linux and its got to the point where i just buy games on steam and assume they will work fine through proton. I honestly cant remember the last one that didnt. Shit i got the c&c collection on steam recently hopping to play generals with a friend, but while it works fine for me on linux its broken for him on windows.
Yeah, I’ve had such an easy time of it that I’m actually surprised when a game doesn’t work in Linux now too. Which is a reverse of how it used to be.
I switched from Windows to Linux in the last year.
There are sometimes odd things to configure, but it’s no more difficult than the windows XP era was.
It is much much easier than Linux used to be due to Steam, and I find I more often have problems with smaller indie games than big ones.
I’ve been playing Cyberpunk, Baldurs Gate 3, Stellaris, No Man’s Sky, Crusader Kings 3 no problem. Plus many others.
I tried to game on Linux for many years with wine, but it was Steam that actually made it feasible for me .
This was me a few weeks ago and I decided to install PopOS.
They make laptops that ship with nvidia GPUs so naturally they would want their OS up to date and working with the drivers. I do tinker here and there but so far I think it’s a good set-and-forget OS.
The issue with Nvidia cards is that some Linux distros don’t install their proprietary drivers by default and the open-source version is only just starting to catch up.
Most will ask if you want to install the OS with Nvidia’s drivers, or they’ll have an option somewhere in the settings for a one-click install.
Laptops are harder because they rely on more proprietary hardware and need more advanced power management.
Gaming is mostly respectable. The biggest exception is multiplayer games deliberately blocking Linux because it doesn’t allow them to install their rootkit anticheat.
I use nobara, which has some nvidia focused tweaks automatically handled for you, and has largely been pretty smooth. However, you should know that there’s a real possibility of needing to roll back, drop to the command line, or make some other tweak to resolve driver issues. It’s not a regular occurrence (and both AMD and Nvidia have also borked windows releases), but maintainers dealing with Nvjdia have been frustrated with some of their decisions in the past and still have to jump through hoops sometimes. Some distros more targeted at casual users do a decent job of abstracting it away though.
I looked into it and tried it myself just today. For the most part it’s fine but you’ll have to be prepared to do some tinkering here and there. Most of the games I wanted to play are listed on proton as works but with some issues.
I set up popOS yesterday and tried to install satisfactory today via steam but it wouldn’t let me and when I filtered my games lost for Linux it shrank down to a very small list. Iirc it was listed on proton as gold or even platinum so there must be a way to get satisfactory to run but I honestly couldn’t be asked today so I set up dual boot and went back to windows for now.
I think that’s the way to got for a newbie. Set up dual boot and whenever you have the time & patience to try to get something to work on Linux go for it but when you just want to relax and play some games (or multiplayer) boot up windows.
I think Linux for everyday use is just fine even though popOS could use some UX designers.
Filtering the list for linux will only show games with native versions. As far as I know, Satisfactory doesn’t have one so you will have to use proton. Go into the steam settings and enable proton for all games. Or if you don’t want to enable it for your whole library, go into the game settings in your steam library and activate it for each game.
Go to the compatibility menu in settings and set a default version of proton, and it will let you install whatever (though there’s still the possibility of it not working).
You’re right that it’s a bad experience, and I’m not sure when it changed to not have a default or if it’s a bug, but that’s the solution for that issue.
for your laptop i recommend looking up compatibility with your model first and be prepared to go back. some hardware may not be supported.
nvidia might have some trouble on Wayland for a while but i haven’t had much day-to-day issues on x11 except with the various sync technologies being difficult to get working as expected.
Steam is works well for most games but note that for games with multiplayer, anti-cheat oftens only allow Windows
Hey has anyone mentioned LiNuX yet??
Only way to avoid this shit at this point.
Or use a 20 year old unsupported version of windows?
All my homies use TempleOS
Also that. I stand corrected.
Issues are:
- Professional audio is nearly nonexistent on Linux, save for some pretty well done API. You’re stuck with default drivers, and the main DAW for Linux (Ardour) interprets the “free and open-source” a little bit liberally (pre-compiled versions are paid, and there’s no guides on how to build them). LMMS fortunately does not suffer from such issues, and is a pretty good free alternative for FL Studio.
- As long as Windows will be mainstream, development needs there too. As a game developer, I prefer to primarily develop on Windows (since most gaming is done there), and I find a lot of issues with how stuff on Linux is being done. And since I found a pretty good debugger for Windows, I also started to prefer that too.
- Linux still suffers from what I call “developer comfort of UX discomfort”. Basically it stems from the devs getting comfortable with bad UX, then refuse to fix it due to a multitude of excuses, including gems like “wanting to avoid spoonfeeding the users” and “introducing users to the beauty of scripting”.
I was pleasantly surpsied by how much audio has improved on Linux when I came back to it this year with Ubuntu studio. Reaper or Bitwig are the way to go. Plugins are the main problem, bridging works OK apparently, but there are some decent native options too
It just suddenly appeared yesterday on my daughter’s Windows 10 notebook. We played with it for like 2 minutes, decided it sucked, never went back. I mean what’s the point of an AI which, when asked, “draw a picture of how stupid you are” (my daughter’s idea) ends the conversation?
You made me realize I haven’t fired up my Windows 11 machine in a while, so I went to check it – even re-enabling the copilot toggle … which weirdly did nothing. Then I remembered I had lobotomized all the AI and assistant “features” a while ago.
I’m a little disappointed: I wanted to ask Copilot “How do I purge you from my machine?”
Recently I changed to Linux (running fedora) and I haven’t looked back since. Fuck Windows
Not ANOTHER thing I need to disable when I do a clean install…
May as well add it to the .reg file you cart around on your thumb drive. I have one that already disables all the Windows “consumer features” and turns off all the lock screen nags, Cortana (this is no longer relevant, though), etc.
It’s in:
HKCU\Software\Policies\Microsoft\Windows\WindowsCopilot
And also:
HKLM\Software\Policies\Microsoft\Windows\WindowsCopilot
In both locations, create a DWORD “TurnOffWindowsCopilot” and set it to 1. Reboot.
PC MASTER RACE
Debian + KDE Plasma, folks.
Believe me, you don’t need Windows.
The pain of being dumb enough to buy a brand new gaming notebook with an nvidia gpu… But I’ll return as soon as possible. The pain of using win 11 is unbearable.
It’s not like you can’t use Linux on a laptop with Nvidia GPU. It’s just that AMD works better (and isn’t as much of a PITA in how they treat regular Linux customers).
Yes, I know. I used a notebook with a 950 before and it worked perfectly fine. But with this new one I get too many error messages for now under Linux, many games and other stuff that worked pefectly fine on Linux on my old 2016 model Notebook, didn’t work at all and the only thing I could find out is that this are some driver problems. I decided to wait a while and try again. No time for a neverending odysee of tinkering nowadays. I will try Kubuntu next month, hoping the newer Kernel will take care of my problems and if it works probably move to Linux Mint 23 later on.
Everybody preefer 10 for sure. They don’t follow what people wants
We still use Win 10 at work. I prefer any Debian based Distro, but the differences between 10 and 11…
Debian for work, Mint for work and games, Manjaro for latest & greatest of Linux (and games) without headache.
Arch for those who love pain and micromanagement.
Personally, I wouldn’t advocate for Ubuntu or anything downstream of Ubuntu (like Mint). Debian, at least, is free from Canonicals corporate shenanigans.
There is also Mint Debian if you want Mint. But honestly, distro doesn’t matter at all to most users. Pick any desktop environment that looks nice to you and go for it.
To be fair, Mint does a good job of fixing the annoyances that Ubuntu introduces. It comes with Snap disabled by default, for example.
True; however, Debian’s update schedule is its blessing AND a curse, and old packets may result in lacking features (which can be frustrating) and lackluster performance in certain applications. And while you can use Flatpaks for some of it, system tools are not installed this way, and sandboxing brings its own set of issues.
That’s not to say Debian is bad on desktop - Debian 12 is great and it runs on my laptop and I couldn’t be happier - but the limitations are there.
Also, as far as I’m aware, Mint does modify Ubuntu to exclude some of Canonical’s “features”
Anyway, if you want a sleek up-to-date system that is completely independent of Ubuntu, Manjaro remains a solid pick. Rolling release means you’ll get the latest and greatest, and packet retention means you don’t have to dip into unstable territory that is the domain of pure Arch.
After some major fuckups by Manjaro, consider EndeavourOS over Manjaro. They are pretty similar otherwise.
Arch is alright if you aren’t new to Linux.
EndeavourOS is essentially Arch with bells and whistles.
Manjaro has a lot of things done differently.
Yes, Manjaro didn’t have a stellar reputation in the past, but currently it’s amazing and I’m more than happy to have it as my daily driver for over a year now. Best Linux experience overall.
(And yes, I can install and operate Arch)
3 distros, it’s a bit complicated.
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If you are not a creator or a gamer may be…
I run DaVinci resolve in Linux just fine…
Lol try to run the top 3 games and tell me.
I beat Elden ring and doom eternal on Linux. Not sure what “top 3” are in your eyes, or what time we are talking about. Oh, I also beat cyberpunk 2077 on Linux too.
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Interesting site. That’s what I did mention by top 3: LoL, Fortnite, or Valorant are not supported due to anticheat. Those are the most played games.
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Agree. But we speak about 350 millions gamers.
Linux is great for both these days.
Not so good for adobe shit unfortunately
Yes and daw
There are alternatives, depending on which Adobe software you usually use. For photos and vector I use Affinity, which works well via Wine… and there’s no subscription, either.
As long as you don’t have tons of peripherals, don’t want to play Fortnite and don’t need 200 pieces of software, and if you have enough knowledge, yes, it can be the solution. It’s still difficult to do the swap for companies, or if you don’t have any skills related to computers.
