- cross-posted to:
- pcmasterrace
- programming
- cross-posted to:
- pcmasterrace
- programming
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Shit like this is exactly why competition is of utmost importance. The internet was never meant to be single-handedly controlled by a corporation with private interests, and more importantly, private pockets
If we don’t see a somewhat significant rise in Firefox usage increases after this, then I fear that battle is already lost. People can complain a lot but doing something as easy as switching browsers seems to be the hardest thing for most of them.
Honestly I don’t think most people know or even care.
You Grandma and her Chromebook don’t care though. The numbers aren’t in our favor, but Mozilla absolutely dominating in the features and privacy arenas is.
My grandma is dead. And before that she used Linux Mint & Firefox.
Exactly
Even if Firefox were to win it’s still a bleak future because the ridiculously complexity and scope of browsers prevents new ones being made. Without the possibility of newcomers either the war never ends or there is one victor. We should start to abandon browsers in favor of apps that focus on each part of the browser (e.g. why does a browser need to render video to the screen when the user already has an app for that).
“Destroying an empire to win a war is no victory, and ending a battle to save an empire is no defeat.”- Kahless
Fuck that. I’m not switching between apps for every god damn function my browser does. I intentionally decline to install apps when I can just use the browser.
What’s the difference?
- no unified password management (or even worse: everything gets just attached to your google/ios account - i hate apps that do not give me the option to keep stuff separate)
- no history functions (esp. over multiple devices)
- single apps getting bought out by marketing corpos or bad actors without getting notified
- data sniffing apps are harder to reign in than my sandboxed browser tabs.
- NO ADBLOCKING AVAILABLE IN APPS
I’m sure there are a lot more reasons, that’s just what came into my mind
Apps being created seperatly doesn’t mean they can’t interact with each other, so I don’t see those concerns as a problem. Is there anything fundamentally preventing the creation of new apps to do tasks currently exclusive to browsers?
Isn’t the possibility of single apps getting bought out an argument against having all your eggs in one basket? 🙃
i think i would get notified in some way if the Mozilla Foundation changes ownership, and since it’s open source that is not much of an argument. open source is getting more common the last few years, but it’s definitely not common
sure, it doesn’t mean they can’t. everyone making their own app also means that they don’t per default.
and you didn’t touch the point regarding NO ADBLOCKING IN APPS while the whole debate here is because alphabet doesn’t want effective adblocking in their browser.
Until apps allow to install ubo I’ll stick to a browser instead of having less control than with manifest v3 and chrome/ium
If the code of your app is like uBlock-Origin then you have the freedom to remove ads from your software. If an app dictates how you do your computing that’s a bigger issue than reckless feature creep leading to the end of browsers.
In my experience people have a poor understanding of the software they use, it just needs to continue working as it always has.
I fear that battle is already lost
I do. I’d be surprised if we see any kind of increase.
Firefox is going to slide into obscurity. They’ve been in a downward spiral for the last few years. So much money wasted on so many failed projects. They’re a shadow of their former selves. The features of firefox are improving of course but by every metric that matters they’re on life support.
I’m not asking this facetiously but: is there an easy way to migrate my bookmarks, tabs, and pinned tabs easily to Firefox? I looked maybe a year ago but didn’t find a 1 to 1 easy switch way to go to Firefox.
To be clear: my personal laptop is all Firefox, but I don’t use it all the time. My main desktop is an integration of all three (please don’t judge), but I’d like to go full Firefox if it was convenient.
Use the export/import options
Every browser has import / export functions. This is a standard feature for many many years.
I get your point, but the easier you make it to switch the more people will make the change.
I’m not saying this facetiously but I just don’t understand what could possibly be so important that you need a “1 to 1 easy switch way”.
Import your bookmarks. Pin some tabs.
Convenience, similar to ninite.com. Sure I could download each installer one by one, but when it was made simple I now use it all the time.
Similarly with Firefox: the easier you make it to switch from any Chromium based web browser, to Firefox, the more people will make the switch. To me your comment is equivalent to someone saying RTFM.
On the contrary.
With the time you’ve wasted complaining about having to RTFM you could’ve already imported your my little pony bookmark collection and be clop clopping off into the sunset.
You really don’t need a manual.
You are absolutely correct, I could have done it a while ago. But while it is inconvenient, for me specifically, it’s not top priority. Once there’s a convenient method I’ll be all about it.
In retrospect maybe having the worlds most popular browser and the world’s biggest advertiser be the same person, was a bad idea.
Calling it the “Googlenet” now. The rest of us that don’t suck Google dick can stay on the actual Internet.
It’s like AOL all over again
Same thing that happened with the internet also happened with capitalism. It’s like you need some regulation to ensure competition. It could have been so awesome if we had what we were promised.
Manifest V2 phase out is a big deal, as Google is pushing towards Manifest 3 only. Google’s version of Manifest 3 is hobbled by removing WebRequest blocking which breaks privacy and ad blocking tools - an obvious benefit to Google as an Ad and data harvesting company.
Firefox is implementing Manifest 3 with WebRequest blocking, as well as supporting Google’s hobbled version declarativeNetRequest to allow compatibility with chrome extensions.
As far as I know there is no plan to phase out Manifest V2 at Mozilla. As long as V2 and V3 are active in parallel it shouldn’t have a negative Impact on adblockers etc.
Until MV2 API is shut off completely. What will FireFox’s V2 do then?
https://blog.mozilla.org/addons/2024/05/14/manifest-v3-updates/
We also wanted to take this opportunity to address a couple common questions we’ve been seeing in the community, specifically around the webRequest API and MV2:
- The webRequest API is not on a deprecation path in Firefox
- Mozilla has no current plans to deprecate MV2 as mentioned in our previous MV3 update
That said, I believe Firefox users have gotten a lot of benefits by having extensions made that work in both Firefox and Chromium-based browsers. I don’t believe there will still be as much effort for a Firefox-only extension but I believe there will be a sufficient number of motivated users and developers to still develop blockers and other extensions that take advantage of Firefox continuing to support MV2 and webRequest.
But at least Firefox is just compatibility, and not phasing out v2
Yeah, it’s still worrisome. This makes Firefox a lynchpin for whether ad blocking works for the foreseeable future on the whole web.
Anyone still using Chromium or any of its derivatives (including Chrome) just needs to suck it up and admit it’s the loser here. Use a Firefox derivative, it’s just all around better in every single way.
I had to call someone using Microsoft Teams today. It does not work with Firefox, even if you spoof the user agent.
I don’t know what’s up with your setup, but this is untrue. I’ve used Firefox for teams in browser for years with no issues.
I had the same issue. It works but crashed once I went into a call.
I can try again with a friend on Momday. Is there a specific user agent extension or a about:config option you used?
Honestly no, I have a bunch of extensions but I never took specific action to make teams work. You do have to make sure popup are allowed and ublock and similar tools don’t interfere with it, but it worked for me.
You might try grabbing a portable Firefox install from Portable Apps and testing that.
I have Edge for two things: Teams and Outlook.
The desktop software for both is so bad, I can’t even use them half of the time.
Outlook actually works in FF, but that way I can put it on my second screen and use Firefox on my main one so I don’t need to switch tabs when emails come in.
You know you can have Firefox open a second window, right?
Yeah but occasionally FF hangs and I want to avoid force closing the wrong one through the task manager.
Like Chrome Firefox has an internal Task manager at: about:processes
You could try opening it in a second window. It might show you what causes the hang. There is also: about:memory to see where the RAM went. It’s a bit more technical though.
Oh cool, didn’t know that one yet, thanks a bunch!
Not a big fan of MS Teams but… it’s worked for me before in the past. PEBCAK.
I’m not quite sure what you’re getting at?
Microsoft has been playing this game since forever.
He’s getting at Firefox being unusable for one of his usecases. Though i guess you could argue that he could just use something like brave specifically for that use case while using Firefox for other stuff
Yeah, I guess I mean that I’m surprised anyone is surprised when an MS product unexpectedly doesn’t work in a non-microsoft environment.
You should be surprised, that is unfair competition.
They’ve been doing that forever.
And Antitrust in different countries forced them to comply with the law.
Why not just download the teams app?
The Teams app is probably just Chromium pointed to the teams website. Might as well have Chrome/Chromium installed at that point.
I’m using both Firefox as my daily browser, and Edge for school related stuff, Firefox is very often maxing out my CPU usage and I can’t figure out why
Yeah, I find firefox tends to leak memory when you have youtube tabs open. Still using only firefox unless testing for compatibility but it is a thing.
It does get worse when using YouTube, but usually it’s my CPU that elevates, not my memory
Thank Google for that “feature”
- On June 3rd, Chrome(ium) users will start being informed that their MV2 extensions will soon stop to function. uBlock Origin (and others) will lose the “Featured” badge.
- The remaining MV2 extensions will be gradually disabled in the “coming months”, with the last deadline being the beginning of next year. (Expect that uBO will probably not last that long).
What options do you have if you still want to use uBlock Origin?
- Firefox (and up to date forks) have no plans to end support for the webrequest API that uBO requires.
- Brave browser will allow MV2 extensions for now. I still have no info on if they are going to use their own store or require manual installation/updating of MV2 extensions.
- If you use Chrome. By enabling enterprise policy ExtensionManifestV2Availability, you should be able to extend support till June 2025.
- uBlock Origin Lite (uBOL) is a MV3 extension that is much more limited than uBO and is not intended to be a replacement for uBO. These limitations are described in detail in the FAQ for uBOL: https://github.com/uBlockOrigin/uBOL-home/wiki/Frequently-asked-questions-(FAQ)
Thanks, great info
Firefox gang but still appreciated a couple of these reminders
for those who come and read through these comments, on top of considering not using a chromium-based browser, you could also:
- configure your own DNS resolver e.g. NextDNS
- go further and use a fork of firefox e.g. librewolf
Unfortunately DNS blocking is not nearly as powerful as an adblock extension which can manipulate the DOM and CSS directly.
this is true. however it can filter calls to ad services and block them at the dns level before they’re loaded in the browser
Sites are going to move ads to shared domains, now that chrome users are stuck.
Sadly corporate environments mean there is not choice for many users.
Or just use Firefox.
many people here parrot the same things relentlessly. there is no issue with choosing firefox as your primary driver. every user here can decide on what they want for themselves.
i am offering other options as the suggestions in this thread (and threads like these) are homogenous.
Firefox has telemetry settings built-in which you can switch off. LibreWolf strips the telemetry options away and focuses on obfuscating your browser fingerprint.
Yeah it’s just that I feel like if someone is still using freaking Chrome in 2024 then asking them to use something even more obscure than FF might be a bridge too far.
LibreWolf is just a fork of Firefox (one of many) which tries to improve its privacy features.
I am not asking anyone to use this, just merely offering an alternate option. Everyone who accesses the internet has used a browser. What makes a difference for the average user is the GUI and UX.
If you use vanilla Firefox and don’t tweak the settings, often your DNS will be resolved by either Google, Cloudflare or your ISP.
There is no perfect solution, only optimal ones.
I’ve been using uBlock Origin Lite and I haven’t encountered any issues
We’ve always been clear that the goal of Manifest V3 is to protect existing functionality while improving the security, privacy, performance and trustworthiness of the extension ecosystem as a whole. We appreciate the collaboration and feedback from the community that has allowed us - and continues to allow us - to constantly improve the extensions platform.
“We’ve always been clear that the goal of our remote-unlockable front door product is to protect your family while improving the efficiency and safety of our field reconnaissance and repo unit. We appreciate your feedback that you really hate unannounced in-home data gathering incursions, and we are integrating that feedback going forward as we work to improve your interactions with our team. See you soon!”
The
{"SHOP DEALS AT TEMU"}will continue until morale improves!Not if you stop using chromium based garbage!
pets Firefox …Who’s a good boy?
Firefox finally got HDR support, so now I have zero reason to use a Chromium-Based browser anymore. Kept Ungoogled Chromium around just for streaming video; uninstalled it yesterday.
Wait it did? When?
IDK but I just noticed it a few days ago when I was suddenly blinded by every video, lol (I turned on the setting in my GPU that converts SDR videos to HDR. It never worked in Firefox until just now).
There wasn’t any h265 support until recent nightlies for windows… so there is that issue. Which is important for watching movies ore even some NVR / Security cameras these days for anything 4K or higher.
I still love my Firefox since that doesn’t affect me. My videos are easily transcoded if needed and I keep to 1080p so size isn’t a real issue as well.
I guess for some, it can be problematic. So they’ll have to put up with ads again.
Or just use a chromium fork that allows ad block plugins…
Every day that passes it will be harder to maintain patches readding this. Who knows but it’s a lame solution.
Edge has entered the chat. Have you tried Bing my son?
Of course, people are quite free to do as they wish assuming they know how.
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I’m just here to say fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuck Google.
Considering the community behind uBlock origin has no financial incentive, why are they still developing for chrome and manifest v3 while google keeps pulling off anti consumer and anti-adblock tactics, shouldn’t they just drop chrome and orient people to use firefox or one of its derivatives.
gorhill already strongly suggests to use Firefox, but to drop Google Chrome altogether would leave millions of people stranded.
Maybe that would be a good thing, maybe it would force people onto Firefox?
You are underestimating how much bulshit people are willing to put up just to not have to make any change.
That’s so me
I recommend to read this response of a developer for Emacs to a user asking why stick to Microsoft’s Github: https://protesilaos.com/codelog/2024-04-30-re-emacs-github-freedom-microsoft/
Good post. Also, in the case of GitHub, one major reason for me for using it is that this is the first place a potential employer will look at to see my work. They won’t delve into the depths of a random git hosting service nobody has ever heard about.
You just need to put a link on your resume, that way they will know about it.
True, at the end of the day it does come down to number of users, unfortunately. More users does mean more potential help/contributions. I just wish more people would switch to Firefox or another non-Chromium browser.
The author’s goal, laterally, is to spread Free Software to as many users as possible.
We’ll never convince anyone that out fight for Freedom is good, by circlejerking.
As much as I like Firefox/Librewolf, Vivaldi still has the upper hand in UI/UX. Workspaces, more feature-rich sidebar, one-click access to recently closed tabs right there in the tab bar, speed dial, tab stacks and other QoL stuff that makes just enough difference for me that I can’t really daily-drive any other browsers. Until FF reaches feature parity (it’s getting close, but still isn’t quite there yet) I don’t see myself migrating anytime soon. Quess I’ll just need to rely more on AdGuard DNS and Vivaldi’s built-in adblocker if uBlock becomes neutered on Chromium…
Why are people downvoting you? I totally agree with you. Firefox has the upper edge (pun unintended) on the backend technology that causes them to resist Google’s greedy changes, but acts just like a for-profit company when it comes to the UI.
Look how much pointless whitespace their is on the tab bar. It was so “popular” that Chrome recently came in and copied that change. But Vivaldi just goes its own way, trying to make the most competitive browser it can.
Many times stupid web pages don’t load… Call support and I’m told it only works in chrome.
Can’t get away from it
So what, you keep an ungoogled-chromium around and use it occasionally for compatibility, if you really need to. Doesn’t mean you are obligated to use it as your daily driver.
I’m doing the same, I rarely ever have to use it unless compelled to by work or simply a lazy site with less compatibility for anything beyond google.
For anyone who wants to try here you go.
Exactly what I do
I have both firefox and chrome installed. It’s actually not that bad as special work “tabs” get their own taskbar icon…
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On Firefox Android Beta / Nightly / forks, you can enable WebRender from about:config .
WebRender has been enabled by default on Firefox for Android since version 92 (September 2021). Performance is fine for me, especially with uBlock Origin.
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uBlock Origin works best on Firefox, according to the extension author. This is definitely a reason to use Firefox, and even more so when Chromium phases out Manifest V2 completely.
Your Samsung Galaxy Tab S5e has a PassMark score of 5488. I’ve been happy with the performance of Firefox on a Google Pixel 3a, which has a nearly identical PassMark score of 5483. Maybe your expectations or experiences are different, but I’m comfortable with saying that Firefox’s performance is fine for me on a range of Android devices, old and new.
Some of its features are still considered experimental and disabled on Android to provide compatibility with most devices.
Two informative Reddit posts that are mostly up-to-date:
when i try to go to a website that does that, or worse, when they say that my operating system is not supported, i don’t go to their site.
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“Your desk chair isn’t supported, please stand up when using our site”
source: my crackpipe
Source: extremely common knowledge and the stranglehold that Google has on webdev
Try and register something on Razer’s website so you can get support for it. Until a few weeks back, PSN locked the browser up completely when signing in.
I use FF for day to day use, but prepare to swap to Chrome when things go wrong just because most sites aren’t tested on it.
Internet is dominated by Netscape, then crushed by MS giving its browser away… Firefox steps in for a while and is great but starts to suck / get slow, google steps in people start to shift to google, everyone is on google… Wonder who steps in next.
There’s a lot more vendor lock in than there has been in the past. I don’t see there being a major change without legislation. It’s still too early to see how the EU’s DMA will affect market share, but it’s probably the best hope, even if it is limited to a few geographical areas.
There’s a lot more vendor lock in than there has been in the past. I don’t see there being a major change without legislation
LOL no… ActiveX on IE was the ultimate lock in, and that is gone now… Also we have A LOT of chromium based clones that don’t have these restrictions… It will still be a popularity contest.
Firefox however is limited by its in ability / unwillingness to license or implement some DRM features / Codecs which kind of sucks.
An even bigger restriction is how iOS just blocks all competing browser engines. It doesn’t matter what sites do or don’t require. If a site is broken in Safari, I just have to go use a different device. On all other operating systems you do have a bit more options, but they all pretty aggressively push you into using the manufacturer’s choice.
- Sent from my iPhone
True… but you can install content blocker plugins on iOS now from the app store and as far as mobile goes Android offer an alternative.
I’m afraid well-established “standards” are nearly impossible to overturn.
It becomes impossible to block ads in all browsers new forks will be made and the features we want will happen. The bar to spin and maintain a new browser is high but it’s not impossible on there are a lot of people that want this
Sorry mate I think this is a little naive.
I suspect that the bar to “spin and maintain a new browser” is so high as to be impossible.
The resources required to keep firefox afloat are huge. It’s not something a few like minded individuals can do on their weekends.
You should check out Ladybird browser, it’s an impressive piece work, it’s definitely no ready for everyday use, but it is proof that a small community can develop and maintain a project as complex and large as a browser.
It is probably the only browser in active development that is not being paid by Google, even Firefox gets most of its income from defaulting the search engine to Google
Pretty good evidence that it’s just not possible to do, honestly.
And who is going to do it? All these “open source” projects are financially backed by some corpos
Independent Web browsers in active development which use their own engine and (aim to) support modern Web standards:
-
Linux Foundation Europe’s Servo
That’s it.
I assume with chromium being open source that there will be an alternative compiled version without this nonsense?
That’s how it works for now, but eventually the code itself will be removed from chromium, not just disabled. At that point they’d have to maintain a large patch set reimplementing it, which would be extremely time intensive to maintain and keep secure.
There is - Firefox
Firefox is not chromium
I know, precisely. But it is an alternative without this nonsense, kinda the only one. And the only option to actually stop the Google monopoly that led to this.
There are already several competing forks each built with a different window manager.
They are not exactly forks. They still get the upstream chromium changes into their code base. So they will all lose manifest v2 when the core disappears from chromium.
They are more like downstream branches. It is possible they will do the gymnastics to keep manifest v2 but it’s not guaranteed
Mate, I wasn’t being serious 🤣
My chrome phase-out finished years ago (though technically I was using a chromium-based browser and not chrome itself). Good riddance to that trash. Firefox all the way!
